6/27/14 Episode 134: Art (Special guest Matt Cavotta)

All podcast content by Mark Rosewater

I’m pulling out of my driveway! We all know what that means! It’s time for another Drive to Work.

Okay. So last night, I got a text message from Matt Cavotta. And he asked if I could give him a ride today. It turns out that I’d already done my podcast for this week, so I wasn’t planning to do a podcast today. But I haven’t had a chance to do a podcast with Matt for quite a while. So I thought I’d leap on the opportunity.

So, in honor of Matt Cavotta, I’ve chosen—so whenever Matt’s in the car, I try to pick a topic that I think Matt would add a lot to. And so in the past we’ve talked about planeswalkers since he was the impetus in creating, we talked about flavor text and names, both of which he oversaw at one point. So today I’m going to talk about another aspect that Matt has had a lot to do with, the art.

 I spend a lot of time talking about design, so I spend a lot of time in this podcast talking about the stuff in the rules text. But there’s a whole—a card has many more facets to it. And one of the most compelling facets is the art box. So today, we’re going to talk all about what it takes to make art.

So for those that aren’t aware, before… I’m on my way to get Matt, obviously, let me remind you of a few things. So our arts are freelance. All of our art are—the vast, vast, vast majority of our artists don’t work at Wizards. And so what happens is, we use them all freelance to do the work. And so when Matt gets here, we’re going to walk through what the process is and how one becomes an artist, and I’ll talk all about the process.

But be aware that all of the artists that we use are freelance artists. And that Matt, as you’ll see, started as a freelance artist. In fact, that’s—the way I first got to meet Matt was Matt was an artist and they flew him to the Worlds in Sydney, Australia. I think that’s where I met Matt for the first time. And he was there signing autographs and stuff.

And anyway, he and I got a chance to talk, it turns out that we went to the same high school. And were from the same city obviously. We both went to Orange High School and both from the lovely state of Ohio, in the relative suburbs of Cleveland. Anyway. So if… Matt should be out here. So like I said, Matt lives very close to me. So we get Matt any second now. Hopefully he’s just waiting for me. Like I said. So today’s topic. All about art.

Let’s see. Do I see Matt? Aha, I see Matt. There he is. Okay. Let’s pick up Matt and start talking art. Okay.

MR: Good morning, Matt! So the topic today…

MC: Good morning.

MR: Is art. I figured you’d have something to contribute to this.

MC: I might have a little bit of something around this.

MR: So I did a little bit of research, and between the two of us, we’ve created 179 pieces of art.

MC: Wow! What’s the breakdown there?

MR: I think 178 are yours. So anyway, I was explaining that our artists are freelance, pretty much are freelance. [MC: Yes.] So I wanted to walk through sort of how—what exactly, how an artist becomes an artist, and like from the artists’ side, what does it mean to be an artist for Magic?

MC: Okay, we’re going to assume first that the person was already an artist.

MR: Yes. Other than me, most people were actually artists before they get to draw Magic cards.

MC: There is an official process for artists to submit their work to us. All of the Wizards of the Coast brands. And art directors can look at that collection of artwork that is sort of curated and maintained by a select few folks at the office. And there have been people who have popped into sort of the roster of go-to guys through that route. But mostly the way we find artists is by seeing work done in the industry, whether it’s games or books or movies or what have you, and an artist, their work will shine, and it will be recognized by one of us that, “Hey, we don’t currently use this guy and we should.” So we go out and find people that way. People who have already made a mark in some facet of the visual entertainment industry. We sort of have this wonderful position of having a really strong and robust set of artists that we can rely on, and it gives us the ability to cherry-pick the heavy hitters out of there.

MR: So I do know, so Jeremy Jarvis is the current art director. And I know something that Jeremy loves to do is as we go world to world, he changes which artists we use because he tries to match the artist to the world. [MC: Right.] That this year we’re doing Greek mythology, that requires a different feel than say Innistrad did, with a Gothic horror look, that he tries to play to the artists’ strengths. To make sure that our mix of artists really can do whatever world we’re doing that, play to what they do well.

MC: For the sports fans out there, I’m going to use a football analogy…

MR: The first football analogy ever on this program!

MC: Bam! I love it. If you are fielding a team, and you have some serious badasses on your team, you’re not going to take them off the field no matter what situation you’re in. But there are some guys who are specialists for certain roles that you’ll bring in when you’re trying to defend on the goal line or whatever. But you don’t take your mainstay dudes off the field ever. [MR: Sure.] Magic art is kind of the same way, where there are some guys who are so close to the heart of what Magic looks like that they can swim in all of those different pools. But then Jeremy or Dawn will find artists that really—it’s in their wheelhouse, whatever the flavor of the month is. And they’ll add them to that group of usual suspects to create a look that is, while still totally Magic, it leans the way—towards Greek mythology or towards Gothic horror or whatever.

MR: By the way, you mentioned Dawn real quickly. Dawn is another Magic—we have more than one art director now for Magic. [MC: Yes.] Jeremy is the main guy. Dawn is another art director.

MC: We just added Mark Winters also.

MR: Yes. Magic is getting bigger and bigger. [MC: Growing!] Yeah, every time we create new products, we need more art. Like, we need more art, because one of the things people don’t realize is, we create—we produce a lot of art in a year. [MC: Right.] And that while we have a lot of artists, we definitely are always scratching for more artists because we produce so much material.

MC: Right. And the other thing that—for the listener who are laser-focused on the cards, they might not be aware that we are doing art on all kinds of things that aren’t cards right now. Or at least preparing to do things that are not cards. And that spreads that go-to pool of artists a little bit more thinly. So we’re always looking for more. We’re always looking for more people who can express the brand and the sort of nuances that it has. And also maintain a level of skill and quality that is hard to come by.

MR: And remember, we used to do one large set, two small sets, and every other year do a core set. That used to be our staple.

MC: And we didn’t do new art in those core sets.

MR: Right, we didn’t do new art in the core sets. Now, we do three sets a year, sometimes more than one are large, the core set has all sorts of cards and new art…

MC: At least half new art.

MR: Half new art. And we do duel decks that have new art. We do From the Vault and Commander and Conspiracy.

MC: Promo cards.

MR: Right. Just tons and tons and tons of things. [MC: Yeah.] Like, the amount of art which we’re producing new vs. even like ten years ago…

MC: And there’s things like the branded play. Like there’s a series of cards for the Hero’s Path. That’s all stuff over and above what we had been doing before.

MR: Okay, so. We’ll take you as the perfect example. So you are an artist. Like, how did you get to the attention of Wizards?

MC: I’ll tell the story, but it’s generally not something that I think would work anymore. The industry just doesn’t function the way that it used to. [MR: Okay.] That just tells you how old I am. I used the good old-fashioned persistence and elbow grease method, where I would put together a small portfolio of what my best work at the time was, and I’d bundle it up in a really conspicuous folder, like a pink or a purple folder, and then I’d mail it to the art director directly. And call like three weeks later and say, “Hey, is there a purple folder on your desk we can talk about?” And I had built up a sort of working relationship with the then-art-director Jesper Myrfors. He was kind enough to say, “No, you’re not good enough to do the work, but this is what you can work on.” He didn’t just blow me off or whatever, and I really, really appreciated that.

MR: Jesper Myrfors, really quickly, is the original Magic art director. He’s the person [MC: Right.] who picked the Magic font on the back of the card, and did the original frame layout.

MC: Right. And at one point he said, “Hey, Matt, you are really close. Like, really close.” And I felt like I was one submission away from making it happen. And I sent in my pink folder and I called back, and it turned out that he was fired. He was either fired or he left or something, and I was crushed. I was so, so upset. So they gave the stack of artwork that was on his desk to the new guy.

MR: Who was the new guy at the time?

MC: That was Dana Knutson.

MR: Oh, Dana Knutson, right.

MC: And I called him, and I was the first new artist that he hired. I think he wanted to exercise his new power [MR: Yes.] as the art director, so he hired me, but I have reason to believe it’s not because of my artwork entirely. I came to find out years later, after Dana and I had become friends, that I sound, on the phone, exactly like his best friend. So he couldn’t help but have positive feelings for me when we talked on the phone.

MR: So the key is, find out who the current art director is, track down his best friend, listen to him, and try to copy the voice.

MC: That’s right.

MR: Advice here. Career advice from Matt Cavotta.

MC: Career advice. Like I said, I don’t think this technique is going to work for…

MR: Okay, so, now you get to do… so what was your very first piece of Magic art?

MC: The Subterranean Hangar. 

MR: What set was that from?

MC: That was Mercadian Masques. [MR: Okay.] MC: It was one of the bad storage counter lands. [MR: Okay.] Yeah.

MR: Oh, let’s real quickly, something for people to understand. One of the bane of artists is that the artist obviously, they consider the best piece of work whatever their best piece of work is. But the audience, their favorites have to do with the card. Meaning if they really love a card, they love the art that’s on the card, and so what artists have come to realize is, their most popular pieces are very, very tied not to what the best piece was, but what the most popular card it was on.

MC: Right. It’s a real slam dunk if you can do two of those things at the same time. One of the things that I always appreciated quite a bit is when a collector of a fan would have a binder page filled with a particular bad card. And you know that in that instance, there was something about the art or the connection of the art to the card concept or the card name that really speaks to them. And that’s aside from, yeah, this is a broken rare or whatever. That’s a good time.

MR: Yeah, one of the things—so  you were unique, or somewhat unique, in that when you started doing Magic, you actually played Magic, right? [MC: Yeah.] Most of our artists do not play Magic. And that one of the problems we often had is that what the art director does is, they figure out the card concept and convey the card concept to the artist.

MC: So that’s another funny thing that happened with art director Dana Knutson way back when I first started. He had called me—I became a bit of a, like, last-ditch man for him. Like, whenever he needed something done in three days or whatever, he would call me and cut me loose on that assignment. And he had one for me, and when he told me what the name of the card was, I immediately—I can’t remember exactly what it was at the time, but I recognized it immediately as an anagram of Garfield, Ph.D.

MR: Oh, right, right, right! Phelddagrif. 

MC: Right. I knew immediately it was a Phelddagrif variant, and I stopped him before he continued the description, I was like “Don’t tell me. It’s a flying purple hippo.” And that blew his mind. He was like, “How could you possibly know this?”

MR: Yeah, it’s Questing Phelddagrif, right? 

MC: Yes. So yes, at times it pays to know what’s going on in the game.

MR: One of the things I remember is, we were doing Unhinged, and we were having trouble getting an image for the booster. Oh, no, there was a card with Mise. We were having trouble getting somebody to draw Mise because Mise is this Magic slang, and like we just couldn’t describe to the artist what it meant. So we finally said, like, “Okay, let’s give it to Matt,” and like “Matt, its Mise.”

MC: Right. Right. That was fun. The Un-sets were a nice breath of fresh air as far as the—I don't know, the air, like the air around a Magic set is we’re taking this seriously. We are immersing ourselves in this world. And the Un-sets sort of pop the cap off of that and let the air out a bit.

MR: Yeah, when I was searching to figure out how many art you had done, so there was like 176 pieces of art done by Matt Cavotta, there’s one piece of art done by Matt Cavotta and Richard Whitters [MC: Yeah.], and there’s one piece of art done by Matt “I’m Your Boy” Cavotta. Because in Unhinged, there was an artist theme, like “artist matters,” and so we gave nicknames to all the artists. So trivia question, what card was that?

MC: That was Zombie Fanboy.

MR: Zombie Fanboy. Very good.

MC: I’m your boy. [MR: Yep.] They let me make my own name.

MR: Yeah, we asked all the artists if they wanted to pick their own nickname. And some cared and some did not.

MC: So speaking of Mise, that particular piece of art, if I remember correctly, the original art resides somewhere near and dear to you.

MR: It does, it does. So I own four pieces of Magic art. I bought the original Maro. I bought the original Jester’s Sombrero, which was the art on the Unglued pack, and then I own Look at Me, I’m the DCI, I guess I didn’t buy it, but I didn’t give it to anybody else. I kept it. Along with my dollar check for doing it. And by the way, the way, I was probably overpaid. And then, Matt, for my birthday, gave me Mise. Mise was the cover packet of Unhinged.

MC: I figured that you could start a pattern then. With the Un-set packaging art.

MR: Yes. So I own four pieces of art, those are my four pieces of art. So. And not only do I have the art, Matt also framed with it, it’s the back of a Magic card, signed “Happy birthday, Matt.”

MC: So it’s funny, because I own one piece of Magic art that isn’t my own. [MR: Oh, what do you own?] It happens to be from Unhinged as well. Art director Jeremy Jarvis, the kind soul that he is, gave me Fat Ass.

MR: Oh, Fat Ass! Didn’t that win an award? That was in—I remember there was some book that had, like—I forget the name of it, but there was some—

MC: It might have been a society (???)

MR: Yeah, there’s a bunch of things where you can get into a special book and it’s like an honor thing, and Magic art shows up there quite a bit. So I heard, “Oh, there’s a piece of Magic art from a recent set.” And I open it up and it’s Fat Ass. Well, that’s an awesome piece of art though.

MC: Speaking of places where art wins awards, the Spectrum fantasy art annual every year has, I would say conseratively, fifteen to twenty pieces of Magic art in it. [MR: Yeah.] And that just shows you how talented the artists who work on our game are and how the game provides an opportunity for artists to express themselves in ways that are compelling to people even outside—the people judging those pieces of art don’t know or care [MR: Right, where it comes from] about cards at all. And yet they’re still finding some like eternal value in those images. I think that’s pretty awesome.

MR: Okay, so let’s walk through. You get assigned a piece of art. [MC: Yes.] Tell me the process, what happens.

MC: Me, or…

MR: From the artist, from the artist.

MC: Or one gets assigned?

MR: An artist.

MC: Well, the first thing that the art director does is he or she will gauge how many pieces an artist can handle and still pump out their best work. But let’s just say that they’ve determined that this person will get one.

MR: And most art, by the way, behind the scenes, has two waves. Meaning there’s two different periods of I think seven weeks? [MC: Yeah.] That artists have to do their art.

MC: Right. Although that has been changing. Sometimes we’re squeezing an entire 200+ card set into one wave because… [MR: ???] Just to get it all done.

MR: Right. We never want to do that. [MC: No!] Sometimes we have to do that.

MC: Okay. So the first thing that you’ll get is what we call the art description, and it is a rundown of certain, like one-liners, like here’s the tone that we’re looking for, and here’s the color of the card that this is attached to. Here’s the placeholder name of the card, just to give it an initial opportunity for inspiration on what that can be. And it resolves with a description of what that art could look like. And I say could, because quite often the art description comes as a strong suggestion, like, “This card represents a wizard’s fire power destroying a wall.” Or whatever. “It could look like Chandra casting wrecking ball made out of flame.” Or whatever. But if the artist feels like they have an image in their mind that is as cool or even cooler than what they did in the descriptions, they can propose an alternative.

MR: Right. So the first thing you do is you turn in…

MC: You turn in sketches of usually both the idea that you were asked for, and if you have ideas of your own. You can provide options. Some folks just like to jump in and do whatever it is that’s described. I was a bit of a pain in the ass for art directors because I almost always tried to find something. I don't know. A little bit deeper. But yeah. You’ll turn in sketches, those sketches are reviewed by the art directors and the writers who are attached to that particular set to check for continuity. In general, the art director manages the feedback that has to do with making this look good, and the others provide feedback on what is correct or incorrect.

MR: Right, so I’ll give an example. So let’s say we did a piece from Theros. Someone like Jeremy’s going to talk about how the art looks, right? Whether it’s positioned right or whatever. Where someone like Jenna will come in and say, “Oh, that weapon you were showing is not in Theros. Here’s a collection of weapons you can choose from, but you chose a weapon that isn’t from this place.”

MC: Oh, I lied! [MR: You lied?] I skipped an important step. [MR: Okay.] Let’s just use Theros as an example. Before an artist even starts imagining a picture in his or her mind, and even in some cases before they get the art description, they’ll get the world guide [MR: Oh, right right] for Theros. And that is usually 80 to 110 pages of art and written materials that gives that artist very deep understanding of what that world is all about.

MR: And we make one of these every year.

MC: At least one.

MR: And it is crazy the amount of energy, it’s like a little phone book of just like, “Here’s everything you wanted to know about Theros, Ravnica, Innistrad, whatever the world is.

MC: The funny thing, though, regarding that amount of energy, is if we didn’t do a world guide, [MR: Yeah.] The amount of energy it would take to art direct individual pieces into being cohesive [MR: Yeah.] It would be impossible actually. As much work as it is to put together the world guide, it allows those artists to express themselves without having to be corralled at every turn by the art director. “No, they don’t wear those kind of helmets. No no no, that’s the wrong color for this group.”

MR: So as an artist, I’m sure you really appreciated the world guide, because it really gave you a sense of what the world was, right?

MC: Yeah. Absolutely. And in the case of that illustration where Jenna pointed out that’s not the weapon, at times it can be as simple as, “Use weapon D on page 87.” [MR: Right.] And it just clears everything up right there.

MR: Yeah, there are all sorts of funny stories, I think this happens a lot less than it used to, where we would say something, and the artist doesn’t understand the fantasy reference, and so they go to a real-world reference. Like for example, multiple times this has happened, where we’ve asked for a drake and we got a duck back.

MC: Ahh, yeah.

MR: And then there’s a couple classic ones, where like the Rootwalla was originally a chuckwalla, which is an actual kind of lizard, and the artist who drew it didn’t realize—he thought we had made it up, it’s a fictional thing, so he had made a lizard, but he made his own thing. And so we changed the name, we’re like “Well, it’s not a chuckwalla, so I guess it’s a rootwalla?”

MC: Some kind of walla.

MR: Some kind of walla.

MC: Clearly it’s a walla.

MR: Okay. So you have your sketches, you turn them in, you get notes on the sketches, what next?

MC: And I’d say that more often than not, well from my experience, more often than not, the sketches are pretty much either very close to approvable or approvable as-is.

MR: It varies. I… yeah.

MC: But now that we’re getting much more immersive with the worlds that we are depicting, it matters more that all of the nuances are on point. So I haven’t been involved in Magic art in five years, so it’s possible  that I was just lucky enough to miss that trend and not have to deal with that level of detail and scrutiny.

MR: The other thing that will vary is, some artists are very, very familiar, have done a lot of Magic art, and some artists I know the first time they start working with us, that there’s little tiny details tat you might not think matter, that just they don’t realize. And as soon as it’s pointed out, they’ll go, “Ohh, ohh, I didn’t realize,” they’ll…

MC: It also takes a little time and it might take a few cards of back and  forth with the art directors for them to provide feedback on the nuances that make Magic fantasy Magic fantasy art. As opposed to something like Lord of the Rings or whatever. For example, if someone puts a—if an illustration calls for a wizard shooting a flaming wrecking ball into a wall, [MR: Yeah.] if that wizard is an old man with a beard, it’s probably not going to work out. [MR: Yeah.] That’s just not part of what we do. Magic, a Magic wizard is young and energetic and—

MR: We also avoid certain stereotypes, [MC: Right.] Like we avoid the long white beard and pointy hat with stars on it. [MC: Absolutely. Right.] Okay, so, they turn their sketch in, they get approval on the sketch, what’s next?

MC: Next, they take the rest of the time between that moment and the due date to polish, to finish out the painted piece. I would say most of the time that painted piece comes in and it’s just like, the team oohs and ahhs. And says how awesome it is. Because you know what you’re getting into with the sketch. But sometimes in that finished stage, the art is in applying color, or applying detail to a suit of armor or whatever might get a little off-track, and it has to be reworked some.

MR: Also, there’s a few very quirky Magic things that is easy—like, one of the most famous is, if a creature flies, it has to clearly look like it’s flying. And if it doesn’t fly, it can’t look like it’s flying. And I know…

MC: I think that second one is more important, because you do have images of dragons and sometimes demons. [MR: Well…] If their wings are unfurled, we get it.

MR: Well, right. I mean, it has to look like it flies. First of all, almost all the dragons fly. So if you see a dragon, you assume it flies [MC: Yeah.] from a Magic standpoint. [MC: Yeah.] But for example, a lot of times there’s like ghostly things, that are spirits that aren’t supposed to fly, so it’s tricky, because if they’re hanging and not touching the ground [MC: Right] there’s this expectation that maybe they’re flying. [MC: Right.] I know that’s a very common thing that—anyway…

MC: That gets caught at sketch stage though. But at the point where you turn in your final piece, in essence that’s the end of the line as far as the work is concerned. Unless there’s color adjustment or “Hey dude, you painted two left hands on this guy by accident” or something like that. Which has happened.

MR: Okay, so you get the art, the art gets approved, so what happens after, for an artist, what happens after the art is approved?

MC: Afterward, for an artist that isn’t aware of the pace of Magic releases, it pretty much goes a little bit dark. You submit your invoice and you get paid, which is awesome. And at some point soon after the prerelease, you will get your product. You’ll get your…

MR: Artist proofs.

MC: You get artist proofs. And in some cases you’ll get a box of booster packs. So the artist can see what their work is like in its natural habitat.

MR: So artist proofs, for people who don’t know, on the front it’s their card, and on the back is white. [MC: Right.] There’s no Magic back.

MC: Right. It’s not a Magic card officially, as far as being able to be played in games and whatnot. But it gives them a very clear picture of how their art is being expressed.

MR: And it’s something that’s very common for artists to sign, and…

MC: Right. They’ve become a collectible thing in their own right. And that white back has become popular for sketches and signatures and whatnot.

MR: So I know a lot—and clearly you did this, but so some number of artists we take to events. Want to talk a little bit about that?

MC: Sure. The higher-profile events, the ones that draw a crowd beyond just the competitors, those are the ones where we like to have artists on hand to—I would say to help foster the environment of Magic appreciation even beyond playing the game. Appreciation for the art is, I believe, one of the more powerful draws to our game. It’s possible for someone to look at a pile of Magic cards and not be able to grok a single word on the bottom half and still be engaged with what they’re seeing. That’s power. I think that’s super important to us. So having artists on hand to hobnob and answer questions and in some cases sell larger printed pieces or even original art to people, it fosters that appreciation community within our fan base.

MR: Yeah, and there’s always long lines, I mean the people get real excited. So people usually bring cards to sign. [MC: Yeah.] That’s obviously one of those standard things. So what is the most number of cards anyone at one time tried to get you to sign?

MC: I was at Gen Con probably ten years ago or so, and this guy came by with a folding chair. And when he had his own chair to sit down, I knew I was going to be in trouble. And he dropped down a stack, honestly about eight inches high. I don’t know how many cards that is, but it’s way more than the recommended fifteen to twenty. I mean, it was probably like… I don't know, could that be a thousand cards?

MR: Maybe. Hundreds and hundreds of cards.

MC: Hundreds of cards. I was not thrilled about that. But there wasn’t a lot going on, so… [MR: So you signed it?] I took my time. Yeah, that was not great.

MR: Yeah, so I was talking about, I think the first time I met you, my memory is when you were the artist at Worlds in Australia.

MC: That was awesome.

MR: So that has to be fun, I mean one of the perks of being a Magic artist…

MC: Oh, one of the greatest perks.

MR: Getting to travel around the world and…

MC: Yeah, I have done a lot of continent-hopping, and it’s all because of Magic. That was a wonderful, wonderful opportunity.

MR: Yeah, Magic’s actually gotten me to every continent but Antarctica. Africa’s a tricky one. We had an Invitational in Capetown. [MC: Right.] But that was a… so anyway, we’re almost to work. Anything other things you want to say about artists that most people might not realize, when they think about the art of Magic? A final thought?

MC: A final thought. It’s awesome?

MR: The depth of the…

MC: Oh yeah, here’s a final thought. This one will add a nice little note of finality in more ways than one. One of the ways that I know that Magic art has really elevated its game, and Jeremy Jarvis and I both agree on this because we feel the same way, the way that we know that it has grown and it has gotten better is that we both think of ourselves as now obsolete. Because we could not do art and cut the mustard anymore.

MR: You don’t think you could?

MC: I would say that more than half of the art that I have done has no business anymore. [MR: Yes.] Now that doesn’t mean that some of them, some of my finer moments wouldn’t still [MR: Ehh…] like hang with the big boys. [MR: Yeah.] But for the most part, we’re both totally happy to see that the art has grown beyond us. I think that just says that we are old and has-beens, or it’s really gotten pretty darn cool.

MR: Well anyway, thank you, Matt, we had a little extra trip in today, so you got a little extra time with Matt. So thank you for joining me.

MC: Awesome.

MR: So I told them, it wasn’t even a podcast day, but it’s like, “Matt’s coming, we’re going to podcast.”

MC: I’m a gamer!

MR: Anyway, thanks for joining me, and so guys, as always, I love talking about Magic and Magic art, but even more, I like making Magic. So it’s time to go. See you next time.