All podcast content by Mark Rosewater
Mark Rosewater
Okay, I'm pulling out of my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another Drive to Work. Okay, a special treat today, guys. So my father is in town, and he needs my car. So he's going to drive me to work today, or I'm driving him to work. So he can have the car. Which means--special guest star! My dad. Say hi.
Gene Rosewater
Hi there.
Mark Rosewater
So there's my dad, Gene Rosewater. And so I want to talk about a couple of things. First off is, I'm a gamer specifically because my dad is a gamer. And I think one of the neat things about Magic turning 20 right now is that we're hitting a neat generational shift, where the people that started playing Magic now have kids that are old enough that they're teaching them to play Magic. And I have people writing to me all the time talking about how, you know, how can they teach their kids to play. So I thought it'd be neat to sort of explore how I got into gaming by looking at my dad. So talk a little bit about how you got into gaming.
Gene Rosewater
Gaming for me, it was a natural thing. It was something that I did when I was a kid, it was something that I did in my family. And it would never have occurred to me not to be a gamer. I love gaming, it's just part of my life. And always has been even as a young child, maybe going back to the days of flu, probably eight years old.
Mark Rosewater
So one of the things that was very interesting was, we got a computer very, very early. So let's talk about that. When did--what was your first computer?
Gene Rosewater
I got an Apple II in 1978. That was back when the Apple didn't have a hard drive. As a matter of fact-
Mark Rosewater
Didn't have disks yet, right?
Gene Rosewater
Didn't even have a disk, we would save stuff on a cassette tape, and loaded back in from the cassette tape. No memory at all to speak of.
Mark Rosewater
Right, so for the young uns out there. So basically, when we wanted to play a game on the computer, we got a cassette tape. I don't even know if you know what a cassette tape is. But it's what you used to listen to music on. And you would put it in a player and you would play it and then for like three or four minutes, even it would go (static noise) and make this noise, and then at the end of it, you could play a tiny text game.
Gene Rosewater
Yeah, and most of the time, you had to do it two or three times because it would get fouled up somewhere along the line.
Mark Rosewater
And remember when you first bought your first computer, to get an extra--was it 64kB?
Gene Rosewater
Initially I think I had 16K. And I sort of waited because at that point to get the next 16k was $500.
Mark Rosewater
So by the way, once again, we're talking kB. Not mB, not gig, not terabytes. kB. That's 1000 for you out there who might not know. So anyway, growing up, we--so we had a computer early, earlier than all my friends, like, everybody thought it was this weird thing, they'd come over and see our computer. We also had the very first--or one of the very, very earliest gaming systems for our TV. Called the Odyssey, remember this?
Gene Rosewater
Sure.
Mark Rosewater
Okay, explain--do you remember how the Odyssey works?
Gene Rosewater
Yeah, the Odyssey was made by Motorola I believe. [Looks like it's Magnavox. -LTH] And basically, it was one game, it played Pong. And when it played Pong, what we did was we had a plastic overlay, we put it over the screen. And then there would be simply a dot and two paddles, and we would play, that would be on the screen. But nothing else was there, whatever we wanted to have to play on, what playing field we had, was the overlay,
Mark Rosewater
Right. So you would take a piece of plastic, and you would tape it on top of the TV. And there are other games--because pretty much you had a carat, a little square you can move around. And so they had games in which everything was taped to the screen and then you would move little, you know, squares around the screen. So anyway, I got in--one of the things was my dad got me into gaming like very young, and a lot of things that would go on to be very sort of established things, we got in on the ground floor. I also remember--something else I remember with my dad is he and I would go to the to the arcade to play video games. Because at the time--when I was young, back in the in the 80s, that arcade--if you wanted to play video games, you went to the arcade. I mean, like I said, I think we had--we had the Atari 2600 for a while which was a little a little better than the Odyssey, but it was one of the most simplest early versions of at-home consoles, but they were very, very simplistic. And that if you want anything more advanced, you had to go to the arcade. And I remember--do you remember your favorite game--I remember your favorite. What was your favorite game?
Gene Rosewater
My favorite clearly was Battlezone.
Mark Rosewater
Yes.
Gene Rosewater
And I actually got pretty good at it, although I probably wasn't that good. But I thought I was.
Mark Rosewater
So Battlezone, for some of my younger audience, was a first person shooter. You were in a tank I think?
Gene Rosewater
It was in a tank. There were two handles that I would hold onto. And each one would would activate the wheels or treads on each side so they can go forward, they can go back. And then you could make one go forward one go back to turn around, and we'd be shooting at things and they'd be shooting at me. No color.
Mark Rosewater
Right.
Gene Rosewater
It was all green.
Mark Rosewater
Everything was outlined. So every object, it was just a geometric shape, essentially, that was outlined in green. And so, you know, the planes or the--whatever other things were attacking you, there was no real detail to them. But it was a fun game. It was a really fun game.
Gene Rosewater
I liked it.
Mark Rosewater
Okay, so one of the things that--so growing up, my dad introduced me to a lot of different games, and--in fact, one of my favorite games that my dad introduced me to was Diplomacy. Do you remember teaching me Diplomacy?
Gene Rosewater
Yeah. Well, Diplomacy was something that actually I learned from my then brother-in-law. And it was a game of--how do you explain this--it was sort of a unique game. It was a game of territory, and you could invade territory, and everybody would set up their turn, and then everybody would sort of tell what their turn was going to be at the same time. And we would have to figure out how everything would interact. So the idea of the game was, of course, was to capture the world. And it was on a European map, right?
Mark Rosewater
I think it was between World War One and World War Two. And the idea of the game, it's very simple is, there's seven countries, each country is played by a person. And on your turn, you make moves. But that's not the beauty of the game. The beauty of the game is, what you do is very dependent upon other people. So in between each turn, you go around, and you talk to everybody, and you try to convince everybody that you're their friend, basically. It's a game of diplomacy. And the game is--whenever I played with people, in fact in college is a great story where--my dad taught this to me, I love the game. But the game is all about, at some point you have to betray somebody and stab them in the back to win this game. Because the game is all about making, you know, seeming very friendly until you betray people to win. And so I say to my friends, I said, okay, this is what the game is. But it's just a game that someone betrays you. It's not personal. You know, the game is all about, you know, having alliances in this, so please don't take it personal. And like I was playing with my friends, got a bunch of friends in college, we used to play games, and I stab my friend in the back to win the game. He didn't talk to me for five weeks! (laughs) But anyway, a wonderful game that has remakes, by the way, if you want to go play Diplomacy, it's fun. So let's get to Magic since this is a Magic show.
Mark Rosewater
(???) When I learned the game from my brother in law at the time, he did leave out one rule, which was, you're allowed to lie. So the first game we played, he was telling everybody lies and everything. And we of course were believing him because he was teaching us the game. So obviously, he won. But after the first game, I understood a little bit more about diplomacy.
Mark Rosewater
The game does teach you about the act of diplomacy, I think. Okay, so let's get to Magic. Since this is a Magic podcast. So I have told the story of me discovering Magic, from my viewpoint multiple times. But I would like to tell the story of me getting into Magic from your viewpoint. As my dad, what is your memory of how I got into Magic?
Gene Rosewater
Well, of course, I knew that you went to a game show, you saw Magic, I probably talked to you within maybe the same day or the next day. And you were just euphoric. About this new game that you'd seen, you'd sent to me, this is the game of the future. I really have to get involved in this game. And so because you thought it was so great, I believed it. As a matter of fact, at that point probably you were more involved in games than I was. And so you were becoming my game mentor at that point.
Mark Rosewater
So what happened was, I went home to visit my dad. And so, to refresh his memory, I bought some--I went to a convention, Alpha was out. I bought I think a starter and two boosters or three boosters. And then I realized I liked the game. So when Beta came out, I knew that if I wanted my friends to play, I had to get it for them. Because I knew Beta was going to sell out in a day. So I bought a whole bunch. I bought like two boxes of boosters and two boxes of starters. Starters, by the way, for those who have no idea what I'm talking about, when Magic first began, you could buy 60 cards in a box. That's how you were supposed to start the game. And then they had boosters that you bought additionally. We don't do starters anymore, but at the time they did. And so I bought a whole bunch, and then I went to visit my dad and I brought him some Magic packs. So what do you remember of me bringing you Magic?
Gene Rosewater
I don't remember how much it was, it was (???) enough for me to make a deck or a couple of decks. And I started learning Magic. But of course, the main thing that I learned is before Mark left and went back home, he said he wanted to trade with me. So he picked out all the cards he wanted. And then of course, I knew was gonna play Magic a lot more than me. So I didn't have any problem with that. And it wasn't for a long time until I realized that he took my Emerald Mox, he took--
Mark Rosewater
(laughs) So here's what happened is, my dad opened up a Mox Emerald. I had never seen a Mox Emerald. And at the time, I didn't understand it, because I'm like, isn't this a Forest? Why wouldn't I just play a Forest? I didn't--it took me a while to understand why it was good. But I hadn't ever seen it. I didn't own it. And at the time, I had two Fungusaurs. And so I traded my dad a Fungusaur for the Mox Emerald. And I swear to God, I thought I was being nice. I thought I was doing--because Fungusaur was awesome. Every time it would do damage, it got bigger. That I understood was really good. And so I made this trade and it wasn't--I wasn't trying to like rip off my dad. I honest thought to God thought I was making a very fair trade. In fact, I thought it was in his benefit. Because I didn't get why Mox Emerald was good. And I knew that Fungusaur was awesome. So...
Gene Rosewater
And what did you trade me for the Black Lotus?
Mark Rosewater
Now the Black Lotus--so what happened is, I got my dad into Magic. And many years later, I don't know, four or five years later, my dad is not playing much because he didn't live in a place where he had a lot of people to play with. And so I'm visiting one day and my dad says to me, he goes, Look, if you want to take any cards, feel free to take cards. So I looked at his collection and he's got a Black Lotus. I'm like are you sure? He goes, yeah, yeah, whatever you want to take. So I took his Black Lotus. (laughs)
Gene Rosewater
Okay.
Mark Rosewater
He's a good dad. So. Okay, so, okay. Now what is your memory of me starting to work for Wizards?
Gene Rosewater
You pretty much know the story. I know that it started with your--just wanting to get involved. And I know you talked to people. And my memory was that you talked to people at Wizards. And there were four or five different people who said, sure, I want you to come work for me. It all started when you started doing the puzzles. Puzzles in the Duelist.
Mark Rosewater
Yeah.
Gene Rosewater
And everybody was really--loved them, the people at Wizards loved them, but also the people who were reading Duelist loved them, it became the premier piece in Duelist. And I think that was your your inroads into getting a job at Wizards is the fact that you could do that, you could create it. And you convinced him that it was good and it was.
Mark Rosewater
So here's my memory is,--so my plan, my--when I graduated college was, I was gonna go to Los Angeles and write for television. That was my plan. And like I said, obviously people know I did a little of that. But this opportunity came up where I could work for Wizards, where I was freelancing for them. I said to them one day, when I was up in Seattle, I'd be willing to move to Seattle. Or I thought I'd be willing to move Seattle. And they're like, well, if you want to move here, we'll give you a job. And so I was very torn about, do I pursue what I had planned to do? Or do I make this deviation and do this different job that I thought I would enjoy. But it really was a giant change for what I thought my life was going to be.
Mark Rosewater
So I called up my parents, my parents were separated so I called them individually. And I asked each of them about what they think I should do. And so I called up my mom, and my mom was not sure. She's like, oh, I don't know, you spent a lot of time and energy trying to do what you're doing. You know, you've had some success. Maybe you want to stick to it. Maybe this isn't the right play. And I call my dad and I say, you know, I'm thinking of going to become a game--you know, work at a game company. And you said, that's awesome, you should do that. So that--my parents had--I mean, my mom eventually got on board. But I mean, she was much more skeptical. Where you were--the second I proposed the idea, you thought it was an awesome idea. So do you remember that?
Gene Rosewater
I really don't, actually, I don't remember saying that. But I could understand myself feeling that way. Absolutely.
Mark Rosewater
So let's go a little bit--so now. I mean, you play--I know you play Magic on and off because you kind of live somewhere where you don't have a lot to play. I know you've played on Magic Online a little bit
Gene Rosewater
I got real involved in Magic Online for a while. And then after a while, it lost some of its luster because of the dynamics of what happens online. And I still have a lot of cards, a lot of virtual cards online, but I don't play that often anymore.
Mark Rosewater
Oh, but here's an interesting story. My nephew. I have one sister who is a year younger than me named Alysse. And Alysse has a younger--has a son named Josh. And he's my nephew. And Josh recently about I don't know, six months ago, nine months ago, got really, really into Magic. And I know you had a chance to play with Josh.
Gene Rosewater
And what happened was, he had some older friends who gave him a deck, which was really a killer deck.
Mark Rosewater
Yeah. (laughs)
Gene Rosewater
So most of my cardboard cards were old. I went all the way into virtual. And so I had the old decks and I wanted to play with Josh. And he just beat me up, because he had some really good--he had one good current deck. And--but we played, and he got started and he's going gangbusters now. He really understands the game.
Mark Rosewater
Yeah, because I talked about--when we started, about the generational shift. I mean Josh in my mind is, that's the next generation. Like my kids I've introduced to the game, none of them have really sort of taken it up. I mean, they all know how to play and I played with all of them. But none of them--like Josh is definitely, you know, got the bug. And he's very excited. He's playing at FNMs And, in fact, my sister just called, like, he wants to learn about what PTQs are, and like where Grands Prix are. So it's fun. He's really getting into it. So let me ask you this, which is, do you have any good stories of--I know my mom has some of these stories, of people finding out that you're my dad? Interacting with Magic people?
Gene Rosewater
Well, that's--the one that comes to mind first is, oh, 6-8 years ago, took a trip to Italy. And we were in Italy, and we wanted to get out of line to do some email. And we went into a little store and I turned around, and there's a Magic poster on the wall. And so I'm looking up for this to go on the internet. And I'm talking to the guy that runs the store. And he is a Magic enthusiast. As a matter of fact, he is jumping off the wall when I tell him that Mark is my son because he knows. As a matter of fact, he gave me a card and he wanted me to autograph the card as Mark's father. And so it was like overseas notoriety. And this guy refused to take any money for the internet. He was like, I was a celebrity in his store. Because Mark was my son.
Mark Rosewater
You know, so when one of the stories that's funny--I don't have my mom on the show, so I'll tell my story for my mom. So one of the things my mom enjoys is, she has no end of--she loves when she meets Magic players, telling them that she's my mother. Because they always get really excited. And she loves to do it--I know you don't do that as much but my mom gets a real kick out of it. And I figure, she's my mom, so we'll give her that, that she gets to be proud of me. So--but it is fun. Like I said, I get to be a big fish in a little pond. So in that little tiny world, they get to be celebrities. So I think my mom enjoys that quite a bit. Okay, so, what is your favorite Magic set?
Gene Rosewater
Well...
Mark Rosewater
I know you're old-time. So...
Gene Rosewater
Yeah. Probably most of the cards or most of the decks that I was really talking about right now are so old that people don't even remember where they came from.
Mark Rosewater
Well, I mean, I've done shows on, you know, I just did a show on Mirage. So I go back there. So what set really speaks to you? Which set--
Gene Rosewater
Actually, when you say Mirage, I thought Mirage (???) was a great, great expansion. Probably one of my favorite. That was a deck--that was an expansion that I really enjoyed. But, you know, I played back in the days of Ice Age and Tempest and even before--my first cards were Mark's first cards, so it was Unlimited.
Mark Rosewater
Yeah, no, they were Beta. Your first cards were Beta.
Gene Rosewater
Beta. (???) Beta, you know, and, and certainly Aladdin [He means Arabian Nights--LTH] and Legends. Some of the early, early stuff. But I lived in an area that was--there weren't a whole lot of Magic players around. I had a good friend who I did introduce to Magic. And we would actually play a lot with each other, and we'd actually go to conventions once in a while. So I really don't--couldn't even tell you exactly what I was playing with back then. I ended up with a lot of cards because I live up in Lake Tahoe, a nice place to visit.
Mark Rosewater
Yep, it is. (laughs)
Gene Rosewater
On three or four occasions, Mark would bring the entire R&D team up to my house. And they would come up and it was wintertime, they would ski but they would spend a week, and they would sequester themselves and they would be working on a new expansions, and they'd bring thousands of cards with them. And when they would leave, they'd just leave them all there. So I generated a lot of cards back in the day when they were coming to my house, and that happened three or four times.
Mark Rosewater
So what my dad is talking about, the big one is Invasion, I would say that the core of Invasion design was done at my dad's house. And then one time, by the way, we had a trip where so many people went to visit my dad from R&D that we realized if the plane crashed, it would have decimated Magic. (laughs) Like everybody you can imagine was on the plane. I think Jim Lin was the only person that wasn't on that plane. Like, Magic would have been in the hands of one person if something had happened. So here's something people might find interesting. So in the player--I have a thing called player psychographics, right? Talking about the kind of players people are, and you are what's known as a Johnny. Do you know what a Johnny is?
Gene Rosewater
Absolutely. I'm a Johnny.
Mark Rosewater
So my dad loves fiddling with decks. So explain what you enjoy when you play.
Gene Rosewater
I like to do a deck that sets up with a combination of cards, and to get it to set up so that once it's there, I'm pretty much in control of the deck--of the game. It probably happens one out of four times, maybe one out of five times. So I lose a lot. And that's okay, except if I'm playing that online. What happens is, as soon as I get my deck set up, the person on the other end usually quits. So I never get a chance to see it go to the end. And that was a frustration for me playing online. If I'm playing with somebody across the table, at least they have the courtesy or whatever you want to call it of waiting until I I see my deck do what it can do.
Mark Rosewater
Yeah, so it's fun. One of the things that I always enjoy with my dad is, sometimes I'll talk to him about combos, and I'll say, have you ever seen this combo? And he goes, oh, that's pretty good. And I remember one time I told you about--what was it, did you play with Mirrodin? Did you play?
Gene Rosewater
Oh yeah, I always liked Mirrodin.
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Mark Rosewater
So I think I told you about the Isochron Scepter/Final Fortune combo. Is that one you built a deck around? Oh, with--right, with the angel? I think you did this? Where the Platinum Angel keeps you from losing the game. And Final Fortune lets you get an extra turn. But you lose next turn. So what you do is you put a Final Fortune on Isochron Scepter. And then you get an angel out and then you just take infinite turns. I think you built that deck. (laughs). I remember that. I remember that deck.
Gene Rosewater
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Mark Rosewater
The story I remember you telling me is how you were playing somebody, and they out an Isochron Scepter. And then you clone it, you copy it. And then they quit the game because you had an Isochron Scepter. But you just copied their Scepter.
Gene Rosewater
Of course.
Mark Rosewater
So, we're getting close to work. Is there anything--I'm going to give you a chance to sort of--any story about me and Magic that you might think is a fun story to tell people that we haven't talked about? Do you have any good...
Gene Rosewater
We've touched on an awful lot of stuff. You know, nothing is really coming up for me as like, oh, a fun Mark story. I mean, I do have--by the way, you know, he said that his mother likes to say, oh, my son, his Mark Rosewater. I like doing that. I don't get a lot of opportunity to do that. And usually, if I just meet someone who plays Magic, I don't jump in there. But if they're--if I find that they're really, you know, really dyed in the wool core Magic people, I will throw out Mark's name. Because usually they know him. And that's like, that's cool. You know, that's my son.
Mark Rosewater
Yeah, no, that's--like I said, because people always ask me that about my mom. Does it bug me that my mom does that. I'm like, no, she raised me. She earned it. She earned it, and any "that's my son's thing" She wants to do is fair game. Same with you. So. And like I said, one of the things that I really--I took that as that--I do think my love of gaming directly tied--because something else about my dad is, you're very playful. And that even even outside the context of games specifically, my dad was somebody who always would sort of take things and turn them into games. You know? Like I remember on Halloween, you know, we'd come home with our bag of candy and my dad would blindfold us and he'd cut up candy and try to make us guess, you know which candy was which thing. Now I later learned that was your way to eat my candy but I did have fun doing this. (laughs)
Gene Rosewater
Once I had the blindfold on, I could do whatever I wanted. Right.
Mark Rosewater
But one of the things that growing up that I always loved was that you always found ways to you know, to turn things into games--oh, also something else that you taught me is the idea that just because the game has rules doesn't mean that you can't change the rules. That if you don't like the game, you know, change the rules. Make the game what you want the game to be.
Gene Rosewater
I think I have enhanced many games, just by tweaking the rules. I don't know about changing them, but tweaking them, make a little bit of a change. And as long as everybody knows the rules, it works better. You know, most of the games I play have been tweaked. Yeah. And I have a wonderful partner who loves to play, and the two of us--she is a great gamer. And we are always looking at how to change the games.
Mark Rosewater
Yeah, and one of the things that is neat--I mean, philosophically, one of the things that steered me toward game design in general is, I love having the mindset that games aren't this locked thing. That the games--that you the game player have some say in how you play the game. And that one of the things--I mean one of the reasons I love Magic is, Magic is on some level, it's a series of tools and a series of rules to allow you to play. But Magic is super, super flexible, that if you want to play you have a lot of means and ways to affect how you're playing. You know. And that that's something that you, the game player have control of, and that's something that Magic does really well. Because I meet a lot of Magic players, but many, many of them are playing very different games, you know. In that playing draft or playing Commander or playing, you know, Emperor or playing--I mean, there's 101 ways to play Magic or 1001 ways to play Magic. And I think that that entire mindset of games being this flexible thing, rather than being a locked thing, I got from you. And that, you know--I definitely remember growing up, you were like, yeah, that's a dumb rule. Let's change that rule.
Gene Rosewater
And something else. And I think that I had--I think I had some influence here, actually, both you and Alysse, but my philosophy sort of of life, at least about where you would go in life was simply this, find something you love to do, and get someone to pay you to do it. So here you were, you were a game player, you love playing games, and you went out and you found a way to get someone to pay you to play games, exactly what I espouse to.
Mark Rosewater
And that's--when I called, I'd say, yeah, the reason I think you were so excited, I was like, here's what I want to do, I want to go make games for a living. You're like, that sounds awesome. You should do that.
Gene Rosewater
Right.
Mark Rosewater
Yeah, I think--I wrote--I did a speech at Rachel's career day about finding your dream job. And then I wrote an article about it. Maybe one day I'll do a podcast on that. But in it I talked about the three things--you it upon two of them. The three things of a dream job is, it has to be something you're good at, something you enjoy, and something someone will pay you for. (laughs) And game design, luckily, I hit all three of those, so... but like I said, I owe a lot of gratitude for you. I'm very thankful for all you did to encourage me to play games, that encouraged me to get into games as a career. And it's fun, because whenever my dad comes to town, we always play games, we usually play some Magic, but we also played lots of other games. And it is neat. Like people always ask me how much Magic I play outside of work. And the answer is, not a lot. Mostly because I have my family, and I just don't have a lot of spare time. But when my dad visits they're the one time I actually get to play Magic. And it's fun, because we'll always play whatever the latest thing is, and my dad is not as caught up as I am. So I always get a fresh set of eyes to sort of see what he thinks of the latest set. So later this week, he has not played Return to Ravnica or any of the block yet so he'll get a chance to--although you played original Ravnica, didn't you?
Gene Rosewater
The original, yeah. I played that online.
Mark Rosewater
So we're--we've returned this year, and so we'll get a chance to--oh, (???) gonna park my car, I don't need to park my car because my dad's taking my car. Anyway, so we are here at Wizards. So it was fun talking with you. Obviously I get to spend the whole week with you. But it was fun having you on the show. And like I said, I try to make this podcast--I tried to mix things up. And when I realized I had the chance to interview my dad, I thought that was awesome. So I hope you guys all enjoyed what I'll call "Meet My Dad." But anyway, it was a lot of fun. Thank you for being on the show.
Gene Rosewater
Thank you for having me on.
Mark Rosewater
But now it's time to go make the Magic
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